Intrigued with what little I've read about ROSHI, I noticed that the Othmer's apparently endorse it's usefulness.

I gather the general 'gist' or concept involved, I think, as well as a rudimentary understanding of the hardware, but have a few questions:

If it's so dad-blamed fantastic, why haven't folks simply pitched their antiquated NF systems and adopted ROSHI as their sole device/modus operandi?

What's the least expensive, yet still competent system available (ballpark outlay)?

Is further system training necessary and if so, where and how much does IT basically cost?

It's hard to find links to any real down and dirty costs data---yet fairly easy to find glowing reviews.

If answers are too complex, perhaps some links to places where I can glean the info?

Thank you

You made me laugh when you said essentially "if it's so great, why aren't people using it". That sounds like my song and dance about Neurofeedback that I go through every day. If only good things caught on faster.

Due to supplier issues Roshi is currently unavailable to purchase new, so, for anyone looking to off-load a used Roshi that you are not using, now would be the time since demand is high and supply is non existent (sounds like gas prices in Los Angeles). You can list your used Roshi at www.eegexchange.com
There should be a new Roshi available for purchase in the fall.

Regarding which Roshi to get, it is true that there are several imitations available, but I have a lot of confidence in what Chuck Davis has created, and I think there is really something to his product over the competing imitations.

For more information on Roshi you can go to www.roshi.com and check out www.eeginfo.com and you can also do a “find” here on the bulletin board and search for "Roshi" and you will find some more good information that way including Victoria Ibric's Roshi training course information.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Kurt,

I find this topic interesting as well. The Roshi site is "quite interesting," as well. Out of respect for freedom of information, since you mentioned the imitations ("I think there is really something to his product over the competing imitations."), what are they?

Rich Dombrowski

I am told that photosonix, the original hardware supplier for the Roshi is now putting out its own Roshi-like product called the Nexus.

Also, brainmaster has something that is Roshi like, in that it uses the photo stim glasses with the Neurofeedback. The glasses are set to turn on in response to the low inhibit. This is a little different from the Roshi concept, and does not incorporate the electromagnetic stim. The nice thing about this product though, Brainmaster is not afraid to tell you what they are doing, it's no secret. While I do think Roshi is doing something special, I think the product that brainmaster has to offer does ad significantly to the training, and if you already have brainmaster, the ad on price is not bad. You can order the Midi stim glasses online at http://brainmaster.eegshop.com

I have heard a few Rumors about other imitations, I'll let you know what I find out.

The ROSHI has many capabilities, but the one of particular interest to me is the mode in which electromagnetic or optical stim is used to alter and thus to disrupt large-amplitude EEG activity that we would conventionally wish to inhibit. It therefore complements conventional neurofeedback with a very powerful inhibit strategy. Because we feel happy with what we are doing with the rewards, we would not be inclined to throw that away. So we would be inclined to use the ROSHI in combination with conventional neurofeedback. Others use it as a stand-alone device, or in different time windows, alternating with neurofeedback.

At the moment there is a hiatus in delivery, as Chuck sorts out his manufacturing issues, so I imagine that pricing is somewhat up in the air as well.

Siegfried

Rich--
Chuck has shared with me the particular technique he uses to implement his approach, and he has asked me not to disclose it until he has intellectual property protections in place. This makes a frank discussion more difficult.

The hierarchy is as follows: Any EEG-responsive stimulation approach should be better than any such approach that involves fixed frequencies. Among those, there are systems which respond to amplitude variations, such as the BrainMaster device, and there are those that respond to the actual EEG waveform. There are two of these, ROSHI and LENS, and among these ROSHI is the more affordable and straight-forward in utilization. There is also the Nexus, but I know nothing about it. Further, there is a cloud over it because of unsettled issues of Chuck's intellectual property rights. I suspect that the ROSHI will be available again in a few months.

Siegfried

If anyone has questions on the Midi stim glasses and how they work and the basis for them - just ask away. Juris Ahn and I invented them about 5 years ago and photosonix built them for us. The also work very well with the old waverider units - because all the midi output is controllable.

This tech has been around awhile - but with all the regulations on hardware and liability, and all the infield political lines, this field has a very difficult time moving forward.

Drew

I would like to know if any of these work with Neurocybernetics, the new EEGer release?

ROSHI is compatible with any other neurofeedback system, including the EEGer. Most straight-forwardly, you just hook it up with its own electrodes and work entirely independently. There should be no interference between the amplifiers. The ROSHI's stimulation just works in background and outside of the conscious awareness of the client, which remains focused on the neurofeedback training.

Sieg:

There is no cloud over Nexis in terms of what it does -- it is different from ROSHI. Having tracked the transfer function of ROSHI and Nexis and having been involved in discussions both with Chuck (not under a non-disclose or non-compete arrangement) as well as with Grant and Ray, I can say that I cam very comfortable with how Nexis implements AVE strategies. To be brief, it is the difference between intrinsically "overshoot" biased versus intrinsically "undershoot" biased approaches.

I suspect that in the not too distant future these capabilities will actually be tightly coupled into NCP. For now though, one can run ROSHI or Nexis concurrently with NCP as you can with virtually every NF training program.

The question is really: "how much added value actually comes from the addition of ROSHI/Nexis et al?" With NCP at this point the answer is "none to little" IF -- and it's a BIG IF -- one actually uses NCP in its default and recommended manner. Most users coming from a background in using other systems have a difficult time "letting go" of the prior way of working but, to the degree that they "hang on" instead, they can literally get in the way of NCP doing its job.

We find that it is frequently the "newbies" who really "get it" -- because they don't have so much unlearning to do.

val

I have switched to the Roshi and find it with BioExplorer software very satisfactory - I like the option of using the optical stimulation googles and sometimes use them alone - stand alone mode. The manufacturing problems with the Roshi are the biggest drawback - it's also not really for beginners in that there is not manual or anywheres near the support you get with Neurocybernetics. I don't think you'll hear from many people such as me since the Roshi group is "unique" and have their own free lists.

Have you tried or seen the Nexis unit?

One of the advantages -- from our perspective -- of Nexis is that it can also support NCP. The ROSHI units do not, as they only support 128sps output over the serial line. This means that one needs to use a ROSHI and ALSO use a ProComp in order to concurrently train in the way that we do using NCP.

Ed+

Any attempts to compare the ROSHI II+, with any other system, is ignernt. The ROSHI II+ is
no longer in manufacture. It has been much more
powerfully replaced, by the new Personal ROSHI.

The pROSHI, coupled with HRV or the like, shall
be the most powerful office or home trainer, for the foreseeable future. 'Nothing' will come
close. It requres no EEG hookup, to do its most powerful work. It's techniques are unprecedented, in the NFB paradigm. In fact, it is a paradigm of its own. The combined pROSHI/FreezeFramer will be offered, at half the price, of NCP/R, with an order of magnitude boost, in performance.

/ChuckD....
http://roshi.com/

What follows, from a long time ROSHI clininian,
speaks for itself:

"I am a psychiatrist that has been practicing for over 35 years. I have used the ROSHI equipment for number of years for many of my patients. I was initially trained by Dr. Ibric. I know barely anything about pROSHI. So my initial experiments are on myself. Over the years, one of my clinical observations has been "whether the condition has been anxiety states, depressive states, PTSD, or ADD" that people often have breathing patterns that are not only irregular but often very shallow and it becomes very clear they are not oxygenating themselves very well. In my own ADD which is probably, trauma based, my breathing can be quite irregular and shallow.

This morning with my pROSHI running with the light exposure at maximum, and listening to some Grateful Dead music at a high-volume, I went through a period of some yawning, some feeling of discomfort in my chest which was followed by a breakthrough of not only breathing more deeply; I was also able to be aware of what was happening with my breathing and I was also able to develop a more steady state of breathing in this fashion as opposed to my prior experience with the ROSHI when I would go through great periods of yawning, sleep states, and would wake up with more energy. However, the ongoing awareness of how I was oxygenating and the depth of my inhaling and exhaling was never something that persisted and never something that I was more consciously aware of on an ongoing basis.

This is just a vignette of one experience, however, a valuable one for me and I would be interested in what other people are finding. I also believe that focus, concentration, and memory are certainly going to be enhanced by oxygenating one's brain in a more consistent fashion.

Thanks,

Brian Hersch"

Further, Ed & folks, this is a report, from the
esteemed Tibetan Master and Teacher, Richard
Glade, LCSW, a protege' of the Dalia Lama.

Please, pardon the windoze text. blame it on
billyG )

Initial Notes on the pROSHI 12/26/04

1. As an attention trainer the pROSHI offers a powerful tool. My meditation students (those well practiced) consistently report that their meditation unfolds more quickly and more deeply. Student reports indicate that placement meditation (both with and without an external object) is typically more stable and more easily sustained. It is also reported that 'recitation', 'generation and visualization' practices are more stable and "feel more complete".
In talking with meditation students familiar with the ROSHI II+ the general consensus is that the pROSHI is preferable as a support for traditional meditation practice. Some concern was expressed that the pROSHI not be mistaken for a device that will 'meditate you'---rather it seems to relax fixations and the tendency toward distraction enhancing stability and intentionality. pROSHI supports, when coupled with clear intention, getting the ordinary distracted and busy mind to relax and settle.

2. The pROSHI appears to be quite supportive of several Neurofeedback modalities and protocols.

a--- in combination with nirHEG the pROSHI seems to both support more rapid HEG increase and the ability to make use of longer training periods although about 20 minutes seems to be optimum for comfort and a sense of 'work without overstrain'. ROSHI II+ stand alone complex adaptive seems superior in this application to those having experienced both.

b--- pROSHI with tru-white see through glasses and the Minder Labs EEG Pendant/BioExplorer and George Martin's Entropy Protocol appears to produce more robust results than the same set up without the pROSHI.
The combination (using a placement of 1 SHAKTI trode on each mastoid) with the ROSHI II+ complex adaptive, BioExplorer and George Martin's Entropy protocol appears even more powerful allowing a quicker and apparently more stable training outcome.

c--- in combination with Les Fehmi's 5 channel synchrony training using the Fehmi box and the Minder labs Pendant/BioExplorer the pROSHI is very helpful. The Fehmi training involves learning to use one's intention to voluntarily increase and eventually voluntarily decrease synchrony measured at Fpz, Cz, Oz, T3 and T4. Obviously the phase switch is very helpful in supporting the recognition of both in phase and out of phase states.
Particularly useful is the dual 'see through glasses' set up for couples synchrony training.
Even without EEG supportive feedback the pROSHI enhances work with Dr. Fehmi's 'OPEN FOCUS' training cd's.

d--- with one person so far the pROSHI was combined with the new
Brainmaster/Othmer Alpha/Theta protocol with excellent results.


3. In as much as the pROSHI is a hybrid device having similarities to, but certainly also significantly different from the variety of non eeg driven visual stimulation devices previously available it may be well to do some pre-first session exploration with persons new to the experience of visual stimulation, pacing, and or entrainment.

a---administer the Sensory Sensitivity Scale, the Sensory Awareness Scale, MAAS, Reactivity and Arousal Scale, and Assessing the Four Innate Capacities of Mind. Explore responses looking for Sensory Defensiveness, low intentionality/attentiveness/mindfulness, over, under and poor arousal stability. When one or more of these conditions is indicated proceed cautiously titrating sessions and carefully tracking post session experience(s). It would appear that utilizing binaural beat relaxation music such as the 'Hemi-Synch' Meta-Music cd's can support a more rapid accommodation to the pROSHI experience.

b---track the pROSHI experience with HRV (FreezeFRamer, Heart Rhythm Scanner or J&J C2) or GSR (Calmlink or J&J C2) and then train with either of these modalities to increase and stabilize autonomic balance and the 'Relaxation Response' during the pROSHI session; initial experiences seem to also indicate that proficiency in these modalities is increased much more easily while using the pROSHI for support (and it appears that Sensory Defensiveness may be reduced as arousal stability is enhanced.) The increased stability seems to allow eased accomodation to pROSHI sessions

c---while not available with the pROSHI the use of 'All-Color' glasses may be very helpful with some who are particularly sensitive---these glasses come with software which allows the exploration of color preference and can support an easy accommodation to the pROSHI experience.

d--- exploring intentions and establishing a state of 'open view' appears to be quite helpful; in several cases something on the periphery of consciousness and being avoided has pressed into full awareness as the mind settled with the pROSHI. While this can lead to a difficult session if one is hoping to be carried away to a pleasant blissfully avoidant state, no abreactions have been reported---in this regard the pROSHI appears to be encouraging the presencing and metabolization of unintegrated experience; this potential may be very useful in a proper therapuetic context.

Rich Glade

And even further, ED+

The ROSHI and the new pROSHI have no need, for such math as Lyapunov, Gabor, or somesuch,
altho, on close inspection of the EEG, as its
emergent variability is headed towards the 'zero point', the brain can be seen to be making successive approximations, on its own internal errors. Kinda kewl, huh?

Siegfried once said that, "With the ROSHI,
one doesn't even have to want to get better."
Many thanks Chuck!
I love the pROSHI! I feel it is very powerful and also very pleasant. I have had 31 hours of pROSHI in 14 days. usually 1- 1/2 hour sessions although one morning I woke early, popped on the pROSHI and fell back to sleep for about 4 - 5 hours with it and got so relaxed I slept in a bit. I seem to be using the pROSHI most consistently in the early am. Almost like sunrise in this gray and overcast season..
Also noticed that my tendency in the past was to get up in the morning with some back pain and the urge to move around and loosen up. The pain has disappeared. Still like to get a move on, though.
Have experienced more lucid dreaming and better recall. Generally feel more alert and energetic & less reactive.More integrated - Getting more accomplished - my daughter observed/described me as being "on fire"!
i have also had several odd experiences with creative problem solving including 2 "safecracking" opportunities where I was able to unlock combination locks without any prior knowlege of the proper code within a very few minutes - coincidence? Another new and unusual application of the ROSHI? ;-)
Seems my ROSHI experience is heightening my intuituon or "intelligence" No joking!
Have experimented with the + & - settings and added in the magstims a few times. I realize that I may keep the magstims turned down to a lower setting than the goggles by adjusting that dial where they plug in on the front of the pROSHI.
At first I found my eyelids reactive to the brightness, sometimes correlating with the + and - settings but that seemed to settle down quickly and now using full brightness. I find it easy to sleep with and also to meditate or stay awake/focus, as desired.
I am keeping a log and wanted to use the pROSHI with and without magstims at the + and - to notice the differences before I experimented much with the glasses' settings. The + setting reminds me of the "calling in" of energy and the - "releasing". Could be?
I have folks awaiting an opportunity to try it out but they are keeping busy til the holidays wind down.
I love the pROSHI and it's ease of use and portability.I have not experienced the buzz brain thing, nor any "headache".though I have had many hours/sessions with the ROSHI 2+ ( 100+ ) hours.
I will begin a few recorded sessions this week so I can "see" what changes look like w/bioex. Again deepest gratitude..I will keep you posted and have been very keen in tracking and reading the postings on the user groups. very helpful and interesting...the very Best wishes, Joan
PS the pain specialist I have seen for years is considering attending the winter brain conference! He's pleased, intrigued and impressed with the ROSHI!

----- Original Message -----
From: roshicorp@earthlink.net
To: Joan XXXXX
Sent: Monday, December 27, 2004 10:51 AM
Subject: Re: glasses

OK, Joan+

The second set of lightframes are on their way. They should be there, in a couple of days.

Well, how do you like it? How many pROSHI sessions have you had, so far?

regards,
/ChuckD....

Chuck - is the pROSHI available? As in could I purchase one today available?

My printed circuit board builder returns, from
holiday, next week. I'm pretty small fish. They
will be fitting me in, between the big guys.

Being just a staff of one, the second week in
January, looks good, that is if I can get these damned patent papers, in the pipeline by then.

These first pre-patent "test" units were to ROSHI folk, only, because of that status. After
that, the pROSHI will be ready, for primetime.

So, far, its design rules are very stable and repeatable. So, be patient. The most powerful
home/office CNS trainer, ever, is at hand :-)

CNS? Because, when the pROSHI brings the brain
into coherence, the heart et al come along with
it, as evidenced by Dr. Hersch's own first use report. He certainly was not expecting what happened, to him, and he's been a ROSHI clinician, for 4+ years ;-) Hang in there.

Happy New Year!
/ChuckD....
http://roshi.com/
http://roshijournal.com/

Everyone continues to "take aim" at NCP because of how successful it has been over the last several years. The "increasec coherence" outcomes have been a staple of NCP work since its inception. One of the differences with NCP, however, is that we also have the off-line analytic tools to demonstarte those changes -- including the CCAC or Cross Correlation of the Auto-Correlation of the JTFA.

And now that we are using real-time 5th order Gabors for the actual targeting it is even more direct and simpler.

pROSHI certainly sounds like an interesting product and I wish Chuck well with it. However, I find that the ideas that using the CNS's own perceptual process for the feedback process itself, really works well.

As others have observed: we continue to be at least ten years ahead of the rest of the field.

val

PS and, again, good luck and best wishes Chuck on what you are offering. Diversity is a very good thing IMO.

Val-

I don't really consider myself "taking aim",
at anymore in particular, as the ROSHI paradigm
has been stable, for nearly 14 years. In the
marketplace, I am proud to let Master Rich Glade's
pROSHI remarks speak for themselves, though.

Come to think of it, connectivity seems to be
the big buzzword, of the day.

http://roshijournal.com/September2004.htm shows
the ROSHI paradigm, at its best.

Happy New Year!
/ChuckD....
http://roshi.com

BTW, the first part of this report is at:

http://roshijournal.com/March2004.htm showing
the ROSHI paradigm has proved itself, to be able
to do the heavy lifting.

/ChuckD....
http://roshi.com/

Chuck:

I do believe it was you who posted (above):

Chuck:> And even further, ED+...The ROSHI and the new pROSHI have no need, for such math as Lyapunov, Gabor, or somesuch,
altho, on close inspection of the EEG, as its
emergent variability is headed towards the 'zero point', the brain can be seen to be making successive approximations, on its own internal errors. Kinda kewl, huh?


val:> Now perhaps I'm wrong but I don't know of anyone else who even talks about Lyapunov exponents and Gabor transforms, let alone actually uses them within NF training. And using those techniques really does simplify both the process of NF training as well as the process of analyzing the work done on other systems. But those are points for a different thread I suspect.

And I'm also a little bit confused about the idea that the "ROSHI paradigm has been stable for nearly 14 years" when you ALSO said recently that my comments about it didn't take into account your "latest developments". Now perhaps I just don't understand how you're trying to describe things here -- or what you mean by a "stable paradigm" -- but, if it's been stable for 14 years, then at least some of what I've said recently about it MUST be relevant NOW as it was back THEN when I said it before. If, however, things have changed so much that NONE of the prior comments remain relevant AT ALL, then how can the paradigm have been stable for 14 years?

I think Rich's comments are great and I'd really like to see his response to NCP. He might find it very interesting, as have many other mediatators, esp Buddhist practitioners. But, again, those are probably comments for a separate thread -- which I'm very happy to engage in in anyone else is interested.

Again, good luck with pROSHI -- and my experience is that a positive message can stand on its own.val

Chuck:

I do believe it was you who posted (above):

Chuck:> And even further, ED+...The ROSHI and the new pROSHI have no need, for such math as Lyapunov, Gabor, or somesuch,
altho, on close inspection of the EEG, as its
emergent variability is headed towards the 'zero point', the brain can be seen to be making successive approximations, on its own internal errors. Kinda kewl, huh?


val:> Now perhaps I'm wrong but I don't know of anyone else who even talks about Lyapunov exponents and Gabor transforms, let alone actually uses them within NF training. And using those techniques really does simplify both the process of NF training as well as the process of analyzing the work done on other systems. But those are points for a different thread I suspect.

# No, I don't find those algorithms useful,
# in NFB training. Never did! They might be
# great, for displaying pretty pictures, but
# to the ROSHI, they only indicate the 'errors'
# within the system. What you think is kewl, is
# upside down, to the ROSHI.

And I'm also a little bit confused about the idea that the "ROSHI paradigm has been stable for nearly 14 years" when you ALSO said recently that my comments about it didn't take into account your "latest developments". Now perhaps I just don't understand how you're trying to describe things here -- or what you mean by a "stable paradigm" -- but, if it's been stable for 14 years, then at least some of what I've said recently about it MUST be relevant NOW as it was back THEN when I said it before. If, however, things have changed so much that NONE of the prior comments remain relevant AT ALL, then how can the paradigm have been stable for 14 years?

# All that was saying is that the ROSHI(AVS)
# existed long before "Period3". Toomim, Ochs
# Othmer and Ibric, as witness.

I think Rich's comments are great and I'd really like to see his response to NCP. He might find it very interesting, as have many other mediatators, esp Buddhist practitioners. But, again, those are probably comments for a separate thread -- which I'm very happy to engage in in anyone else is interested.

# The ROSHI's 'original' Complex Adaptive sees
# and treats all EEG, measured at the scalp, as
# 'leakage' current, from an otherwise coherent
# system; to be reduced to the quantum 'zero'
# point, if possible; no internal transmission
# inefficiencies. Blew Pribram away, when he
# experienced it, with the protoype pROSHI.

# The pROSHI provides the brain, with a mirror
# of what it 'should' like. It "quantumly" does
# its darndest, to duplicate it, w/ Tom Allen's
# wall to wall genius brain, as witness.

Again, good luck with pROSHI -- and my experience is that a positive message can
stand on its own.val

# So, as you're busy measuring and displaying
# 'errors', both ROSHI systems (EEG coupled and
# non EEG coupled) are working to reduce most
# of those error coefficients, to zero.

# Indeed, ss neither system contains any prior
# art, the ROSHI paradigm does stand on its
# own.

/ChuckD...
http://roshi.com/

Chuck:

The essence of the Gabor is that it captures the information value of the signal -- in the same way that the CNS handles its own perceptual process. I'm not showing "errors" -- I'm giving real-time informaation and doing that in the same way as does the CNS all by itself. Hence it's "taken in" quite naturally by the CNS and the "errors" just melt away.

IMO, that's pretty artful and, up till the present, so ALONE in this field that most don't even understand the terms, let alone how it's been implemented in NeuroCARE Pro.

Yes, Pribram is pretty cool ('kewl as you might say) and he though NCP was pretty cool as well. It's been a great series of conversations that he and I have had over the last four years.

Again, IMO, diversity is a "good thing" and being able to have respectful discussions -- and disagreements -- is also a "good thing".

That kind of respect for diversity is certainly something that we have needed in this field -- and in society as a whole -- for quite some time.

val
www.zengar.com

Chuck:

The essence of the Gabor is that it captures the information value of the signal -- in the same way that the CNS handles its own perceptual process. I'm not showing "errors" -- I'm giving real-time informaation and doing that in the same way as does the CNS all by itself. Hence it's "taken in" quite naturally by the CNS and the "errors" just melt away.

# For the life of me, Val, I don't see where the NCP belongs,
# in a ROSHI thread, in the first place. I couldn't care less,
# about Gabor! Those are effete mathematics, to the ROSHI paradigm.

IMO, that's pretty artful and, up till the present, so ALONE in this field that most don't even understand the terms, let alone how it's been implemented in NeuroCARE Pro.

# Just recently browsing your website, I have found nothing
# that indicates that NCP, NCP/R has ever matched up, to the
# work done at: http://roshijournal.com/archives.htm

Yes, Pribram is pretty cool ('kewl as you might say) and he though NCP was pretty cool as well. It's been a great series of conversations that he and I have had over the last four years.

# Monkey see monkey do, ain't no virtue, Val. The pROSHI's addressing